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ECONTROL conflicting advice

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Elbarto

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What's your guys opinions on starting econtrol? Have te sdmz orbit stack an have seen people say start taking it in week 6,week8 and also week 9. For rebound . Interested in your opinions on this.
 
I think the latest info is to start taking your ai with your other PCT products with no delay.
 
craigs449 said:
I think the latest info is to start taking your ai with your other PCT products with no delay.
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Not for me. I will always be taking the AI following the SERM in PCT. Sometimes I run it alongside the SERM as well, but I always extend it out a few weeks longer than the SERM itself.
 
adrenolin said:
Not for me. I will always be taking the AI following the SERM in PCT. Sometimes I run it alongside the SERM as well, but I always extend it out a few weeks longer than the SERM itself.
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I keep hearing arguments both ways.....I have started and ended with PCT, and also waited 2 weeks into PCT and dragged the AI into 2 weeks post PCT.........Both worked fine.
 
This was my original idea. It makes more sense running it after two weeks of pct. but this is with no evidence backing me up here
 
It's going to work either way, and the ideal solution is probably to do both: Start it during PCT and keep running it after you stop your SERM for a few more weeks.

The reason people run it with Clomid was explained by Mike Arnold in a well-written article, where he essentially explains that Clomid acts as both an anti-estrogen and pro-estrogen at the same time, and pairing it with an AI helps to eliminate any of the pro-estrogen functions of the Clomid.

The reason people run it after their SERM is to watch out for "rebound" estrogen, which is always a possibility. The Clomid works so well at boosting test that the excessive test will sometimes start aromatizing as you come out of PCT and turn into estrogen. This is usually the cause of people getting gyno a month after PCT wondering how the hell it happened.

There's valid reasons for both methods of administration, and that's why I would personally take both approaches, and just dose the AI all the way through PCT and a week or two after it. The only change I would personally make is to taper the dose of the AI just a bit once you stop the SERM to allow your body to adjust just a bit and ease it into a better balance. The AI's are strong drugs as well, stronger than most probably give them credit for, and stopping that cold turkey could leave your body a little confused as well.
 
locallifter said:
It's going to work either way, and the ideal solution is probably to do both: Start it during PCT and keep running it after you stop your SERM for a few more weeks.

The reason people run it with Clomid was explained by Mike Arnold in a well-written article, where he essentially explains that Clomid acts as both an anti-estrogen and pro-estrogen at the same time, and pairing it with an AI helps to eliminate any of the pro-estrogen functions of the Clomid.

The reason people run it after their SERM is to watch out for "rebound" estrogen, which is always a possibility. The Clomid works so well at boosting test that the excessive test will sometimes start aromatizing as you come out of PCT and turn into estrogen. This is usually the cause of people getting gyno a month after PCT wondering how the hell it happened.

There's valid reasons for both methods of administration, and that's why I would personally take both approaches, and just dose the AI all the way through PCT and a week or two after it. The only change I would personally make is to taper the dose of the AI just a bit once you stop the SERM to allow your body to adjust just a bit and ease it into a better balance. The AI's are strong drugs as well, stronger than most probably give them credit for, and stopping that cold turkey could leave your body a little confused as well.
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Agreed^^^^ Good post Local!
 
I've always done it this way and had solid results:

Weeks 1-4: Stack
Weeks 5-8: Clomid
Weeks 6-8 E-Control

I'm always back to where I want to be after 4 weeks of PCT.
 
I'm back! Finished cycle and will be posting a review . This was insane! Unfortunately what local lister ha detailed has happened to me I have a bit of puffy nipple forming and was goin to ask what's the next course of action? I've been taking nolva at 20mg or two weeks , this week I jumped it to 30 aday. Now before letro is mentioned , is there anything that won't kill my libido? Econtrol?




24. 5" 11. 187. My cycle was the orbit nutrition stack + tamox at 20 for four weeks .
despite this I will be posting a review because this rocked!
 
You're doing the right thing with the Nolva, just stick with that @20mg for a few more weeks and everything should subside.
 
hey guys im back again, Sill have been administrating 30/mg of NOLVA ED. Glad i caught this very early, however seems to me like the small lump i had is growing , not at an alarming rate, but its bigger than it was when i started the nolva. Any takers on some advice? Im trying to avoid a full on libido crash, so That is why i was asking about any alternatives besides letro, but if necessary i wouldnt over look it.
 
Elbarto said:
hey guys im back again, Sill have been administrating 30/mg of NOLVA ED. Glad i caught this very early, however seems to me like the small lump i had is growing , not at an alarming rate, but its bigger than it was when i started the nolva. Any takers on some advice? Im trying to avoid a full on libido crash, so That is why i was asking about any alternatives besides letro, but if necessary i wouldnt over look it.
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The longer you wait, the less effective letro will be. Imho you should pick up some liquid sildenafil (viagra) and a bottle of letro from Hardcore Peptides immediately, especially since you report the nolva to have no effect. I don't know what you used, but if it was a progestin you could possibly looking at a prolactin imbalance which can cause gyno which is a little different from estrogen induced and would explain why the nolva is not having an effect.

Edit: I note you haven't been on Nolva long - give it at least 3wks before giving it any assessments.
 
Great thinking, that is my only concern. I had taken the nolva up to 40mg still no noticeable change. It's been one month taking it. I just received ralox and administered it yesterday . If no progress in 5 or so days , it time to nuke it with the letro.

its not too noticeable but it def getting worse.

On the bright side. I gained 23 lbs on SDMz. And only dropped 5 after pct .

hoope that answers your question about what I was taking
 
Tamox was from hardcore peptides... I got one bottle left

and ralox from cem
 
GospelWarrior said:
I've always done it this way and had solid results:

Weeks 1-4: Stack
Weeks 5-8: Clomid
Weeks 6-8 E-Control

I'm always back to where I want to be after 4 weeks of PCT.
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This is my preference also. That being said there's more than one way to skin a cat.
 
update: about to order letro and the slidenafil . been about 2 weeks taking the ralox and tamox. ralox at 60 mg and tamox back at 20. so far No noticeable reduction, or addition . Just puffiness and lump size of a dime

Thinking about cutting goff the tamox,( due to conflict with letro) and staying on a ralox/ letro combo. anybody opposed to a 2.5 mg EOD MWF protocol? but ralox ED. maybe even 1.25 EOD?
 
Elbarto said:
update: about to order letro and the slidenafil . been about 2 weeks taking the ralox and tamox. ralox at 60 mg and tamox back at 20. so far No noticeable reduction, or addition . Just puffiness and lump size of a dime

Thinking about cutting goff the tamox,( due to conflict with letro) and staying on a ralox/ letro combo. anybody opposed to a 2.5 mg EOD MWF protocol? but ralox ED. maybe even 1.25 EOD?
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Don't know about the ralox, but when I've run letro, I've just gone full blast at 2.5 mg daily till all symptoms were gone. I then gradually tapered down and switched over to E-Control at 3 a day for a few weeks to prevent any rebound. I'm NOT saying this is how it has to be done, it's just what I'VE done. And you can surely expect libido to be completely crashed. Have fun! :rolleyes:
 
Update: The ralox/nolva is a great combo. Slow but efficient. Anyway, I ordered some exemastane from HP and ending second week of 12.5 ED . Anyway my question is how do I come off of everything? Wait till ralox is done? (Still have half of bottle)). Cutoff exemastane on 3rd week and stick with nolva aromasin? Like to hear some opinions . Thanks guys!
 
This lump...did you have a lump prior to the sdmz cycle??...wanna make sure I'm reading it correctly..

This is a serious question....are you measuring the liquid serms correctly?...what are you using to measure them and too what level?...
 
BiggieSmallz said:
might be best to drop the SERMs, then run low-dosed asin for another few weeks, then drop the asin and you should be in the clear. Logic behind this is that SERMs block estrogen receptors, but they also artificially boost test production, which converts to estro, so can inadvertently spike E2 (estrogen) in the process as a consequence, so running low-dosed aromasin or another AI would help towards the tail end of the SERM treatment, and ongoing for a few weeks thereafter (SERMs have a half-life of 5-7 days). Should keep E2 balanced this way as you come off stuff, and exemestane (aromasin) since it's a suicidal AI, would avoid any kind of estro rebound
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Agreed.
 
Hey guys,

the lump seems be be almost gone! a bit of puffy ness left however. The lump i got after a SDMZ cycle, where i got rebound, still trying to figure out what went wrong to re evaluate for next time, (i did use Nolva ,ultra male, econtrol combo, however i did take 3 caps of econtrol at one sitting before bed)

For review: been on nolva for almost 2 months, Ralox for four weeks, and Aromasin ending second week.

To measure ive been using the Oral syringes 1ML . i take novla and ralox at 1 ml. and the aromasin at .05 mL
 
Any takers?

What's the longest I should be on aromasin?
 
The point at which an A.I. should be added into PCT will depend on what type of steroid(s) one was using during their cycle.

If one was running solely non-aromatizing drugs, it makes no sense to begin using an AI right off the bat because estrogen levels will already be very low. As PCT progresses natural test levels will begin to rise. This testosterone can then be aromatized into estrogen, which will have an inhibitory effect on test production. Adding an AI into PCT at this point makes sense.

Remember, the body uses estrogen as a means of regulating testosterone production. When estrogen concentrations reach a certain point, the body senses that testosterone levels are adequate and subsequently reduces production. By chemically inducing a slight estrogen deficiency through AI administration, negative feedback is minimized, allowing testosterone levels to rise higher than they would under normal circumstances.

When using aromatizable steroids, most people will already be using an AI during their cycle. The goal of AI administration during one's cycle is to maintain a "normal" testosterone level, not supress aromatization to the point of estrogen deficiency. Since normal levels of estrogen will have an adverse effect on testosterone production during PCT, it makes sense to continue using an AI into PCT under these circumstances.

As far as duration of use is concerned, I generally advise running an AI for one week longer than the serm to help keep newly produced test from concerting into estrogen. After that point, the HPTA should be pretty much back to normal.
 
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