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Would greatly appreciate your input on my first PH cycle (MSTEN Rx)....

chuckyD

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Hi Mike,

I have been reading some of your posts on here and your knowledge seems unparalleled to others on this forum. I know you don't know me at all, but I was wondering what you thought of my first cycle (haven't started it yet and plenty of room for adjustments). I am 27 years old 5'10 185. Trying to break through a plateau I have been at for some time now.

Products: MSTEN Rx, N2Guard, Nolva, E-Control. I bought HCGenerate (2 bottles) and Unleashed (1 bottle) as well to use with this cycle but Adrenolin said they are crap. Do you agree? Should I not add them in with this cycle?

Adrenolin also said to add Epi-Andro to my stack, but didn't say why, and I'm really wondering why I should add it. Anyways, the stack is going to look like this (if you agree that I should not use the HCGenerate or Unleashed at all, and that it would be beneficial and not harmful to me to add the Epi-Andro which I do not have yet)

Weeks 1 - 4

IML M-Sten
2 caps upon waking

N2Guard
7caps prior to bed

IML Epi-Andro
3 caps upon waking


PCT
Weeks 5 - 8

Nolvadex
20mg prior to bed

N2Guard
7 caps prior to bed

Weeks 8 - 10

E-Control
3 caps prior to bed

Any input you have would be greatly appreciated. Thank you for your time.

Chuck
South Florida, USA
 
OK, I looked up all the supps you listed here, as I was not previously familiar with all of them. Here is my take on what you currently have:

Unleashed: The manufacturer states that after 28 days of use, T levels increased 19.7%. That is barely anything and hardly enough of an increase to make a difference. However, it is still something, so you might as well use it, rather than throw it away. Still, it is the least effective of the T boosters you have listed.

HCGenerate: Not bad, but certainly not as effective as traditional PCT drugs, like SERM's and AI's. However, some of the ingredients listed have been clinically prove to cause fairly significant elevations in testosterone levels. So, based on the ingredient profile, it is not a worthless supplement. However, I did not look at the dosages for each ingredient, which will determine whether or not the product is effective. So long as it contains clinically proven dosages of the listed ingredients, I would certainly include it in your PCT, rather than throw it away. It is purely a T booster and has no AI properties, which is OK though because you already have Eradicate.

N2Gaurd: Not bad, but not as good as Advanced Cycle Support. Yes, it has a lot of clinically proven ingredients--some of which are included in Advanced Cycle Support, BUT...the dosage of the most effective compounds is either low...or the dosage is hidden in a proprietary blend. Still, it is worth using when on-cycle.

Nolvadex: Obviously, this should be used during PCT.

E-control: Another great addition to your PCT. This, along with Nolvadex, is your most effective PCT drugs.

Epi-Andro: A good product, but not sure why it is listed in your program. You can use it if you want, but it looks like it was added simply because the adviser personally likes it. Again, there is absolutely nothing wrong with using it alongside M-sten...and you might really like it, but whether or not you should include it in your program will depend on: 1) Does it help you accomplish your goals 2) Is it the most effective product for helping you to accomplish your goals. 3) Do you have/want to spend the cash.

For example, if your primary goal is mass & strength gain and you wanted to include a 2nd product alongside M-sten, Epi-andro would not be your best choice. However, if you wanted to harden up while gaining size (assuming your BF% was low enough to notice this effect), then it would be a good addition to your cycle. Note: Keep in mind that most IML steroids will increase muscle hardness, including Super DMZ 3.0, M-sten, Halodrol, Epi-tren, Epi-andro, etc, so you don't need Epi-andro to experience this effect. However, it can further augment it.

Since you say you wanted to break past a plateau, I am assuming size & strength is your priority. To this end, I recommend a single product 6 week run for your 1st cycle, so long as finances permit. You could add a 2nd non-methylated product to your cycle, like Epi-andro or Decadrol if you desire, but that is your choice. See below for cycle example. I have included the products you already have in your possession.

Weeks 1-6: M-sten @ 20-30 mg/daily.
Weeks 1-6: N2Gaurd @ label recommendation.

Weeks 7-10: Nolvadex @ 20 mg/daily.
Weeks 7-10: HCGenerate @ label recommendations.
Weeks 7-10: Unleashed @ label recommendations.
Weeks 8-11: E-Control @ 3 caps/daily (before bed).

You want to use the AI (E-control) with the rest of your PCT drugs, not afterward. An AI increases T levels by suppressing estrogen. When the body senses that estrogen is low, it increases testosterone production in a effort to increase estrogen through aromatization. Basically, by using an AI and reducing estrogen levels, you are tricking your body into thinking T levels still aren't high enough.

You want to use an AI with SERM's and other non-AI test boosters in order to take advantage of the synergistic effect. You see, when you use SRRM's and other non-AI T boosters without an AI, estrogen levels will increase normally as T levels rise. When that happens, the body will sense that estrogen has returned to normal and test production will diminish. You can overcome that effect by using an AI with your SERM's/T boosters, resulting in higher overall testosterone levels (a greater recovery). This is because the AI will trick the body into sensing an estrogen deficiency throughout your entire PCT, thereby taking maximum advantage of the SERM's and causing the body to continue pumping out testosterone at an exaggerated rate.

However, I recommend starting the AI about 1 week after the SERM's/T boosters, as it takes about a week for test level to begin to rise anyway. I also recommend continuing to use the AI about 1 week after your finish the SERM's/T boosters, in order to avoid any estrogen rebound as the body normalizes. This is a 5 week PCT, which is more than sufficient for a 6 week cycle.
 
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That looks pretty awesome, Mike. I got a lot out of that post. Just a few questions.

This is a 5 week PCT, which is more than sufficient for a 4 week cycle.
I meant to type "6 week cycle"--typo.
1) Is this a typo? Or was doing a six week cycle a typo? I currently only have one bottle of MSTEN so I was only going to do 20/20/20/20. Finances do permit a longer cycle, and you said you think that would be better than a 4 week, correct? What would the dosing look like on a 6 week? Also 5 week PCT would not be enough on a 6 week MSTEN cycle I assume...
As I said, the above was a typo--I meant to say 6 weeks. The PCT still apllies. A 5 week PCT is generally fine for most cycles, whether it is 6 weeks, 8 weeks, or 12 weeks. Lots of guys only run a 4 week (or 30 day) PCT, which is very common.

2) I currently have 2 bottles of HCGenerate, would it be detrimental/pointless to use the HCG while I am ON the MSTEN?
Pointless.

3) I was planning to stay off of creatine and pre-workout while I am ON, am I okay to resume this when PCT starts? Or should I wait until completely done?
I can understand taking a break from the pre-workout supps, as excessive or long-term stimulant use is not good, but why go off the creatine? Going off now would be the worst possible time to go off. First of all, there is no reason to go off creatine at all--ever. Secondly, going off creatine at the start of your cycle is a horrible idea, as doing so will cause you to misinterpret the effectiveness of the products. How so? When the typical person takles creatine, they usually gain about 4-7 lbs of intrasmucular water. Because this water is inside the muscle, it looks exactly like muscle tissue. So, by dropping the creatine, you will appear to lose 4-7 lbs of muscle over about a 30 days period, as it takes about 30 days for creatine stores to return to normal. Since creatine also increases muscular strength pretty significantly, you can expect to lose all that strength, as well.

So, even if you gain 5 pounds of muscle from the M-sten, you wouldn't even notice it. You might get harder and a bit drier, but you would literally appear to remain about the same size. You wouldn't start to notice any size gains until you surpassed 5 lbs of added muscle tissue. In other words, the product would be doing exactly what it is supposed to be doing, but you wouldn't see the results manifest visually. You wouldn't notice the full strength increase from the M-sten either, as your body would be fighting against the strength decrease that accompanies declining creatine levels. All of this will cause you to misinterpret the effectiveness of the M-sten. If you ended up gaining 13 lbs of lean tissue and experienced a 20% strength increase from the M-sten, you would only look like you gained 8 lbs and your strength increase might be only 10-15%, due to the decrease in muscle size & strenbgth that occurs when you stop using creatine. So, why on earth would you stop taking creatine when it is completely contradictory to your goals, especially at this time???

Whoever gave you this advice gave you shity advice. I have seen people recommend this before, but there is literally no good reasn for doing so when your goals are increased mass & strength....and like I said before, you don't ever have to stop taking creatine if you don't want to. Creatine NEVER loses it effectiveness. There is no such thing as creatune desneistization. It will continue doing what it is supposed to for as long as you take it. 15 year studies have been done, in which dozens of test subjects used creatine for 15 years straight at normal BB'ing dosages--and after the 15 year study was over, the test subjects experienced no side effects and natural creatine production resumed normally. There are absolutely no health issues associated with long-term creatine use and in fact, creatine has numerous clinically proven health benefits. It is even good for the heart. It also diertcly improves muscle growth by inhibiting myostatin and indirectly increases protein synthesis. Do yourself a huge favor and stay on the creatine. BB'rs should not be "cycling" creatine. The entire cycling idea is outdated and is counterproductive to a BB'rs goals.



Thank you so much for your time, it was painfully obvious that you spent a lot of time researching this for me. You're the man Mike!
 
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Also, should I add something with the MSTEN to fight this lethargy and libido decrease I have been reading about from people on MSTEN?

What are your thoughts on Forma Stanzol, Mike? (if any)
 
That looks pretty awesome, Mike. I got a lot out of that post. Just a few questions.



1) Is this a typo? Or was doing a six week cycle a typo? I currently only have one bottle of MSTEN so I was only going to do 20/20/20/20. Finances do permit a longer cycle, and you said you think that would be better than a 4 week, correct? What would the dosing look like on a 6 week? Also 5 week PCT would not be enough on a 6 week MSTEN cycle I assume...

2) I currently have 2 bottles of HCGenerate, would it be detrimental/pointless to use the HCG while I am ON the MSTEN?

3) I was planning to stay off of creatine and pre-workout while I am ON, am I okay to resume this when PCT starts? Or should I wait until completely done?

Thank you so much for your time, it was painfully obvious that you spent a lot of time researching this for me. You're the man Mike!

1. ) Grab another bottle of msten and 4-andro(for lethargy and libido)if money permits. Run 3 caps a day on the msten for 6 weeks. A 4 week pct is sufficient with any oral cycle.
2.) Don't use that on cycle. It would be meaningless
3.) Yes run creatine and preworkout on cycle and through pct. Creatine helps blood flow to your muscles and preworkout gets your butt in the gym.
 
3 caps a day of the 4-Andro right?

It's only 60 caps so I would run 1 cap a day for 3 weeks and then 2 a day for the rest
 
Chucky, I accidentally edited your post and placed the answers within. I meant to hit the reply with quote option, but being a moderator, the edit option is available for everyone's posts and is placed right next to the reply with quote option. I accientally hit the wrong option. So, please refer to your own post (post #3) for the answers. Sorry about that.
 
Greatly answers Mike
 
Mike, thanks again. Will stay on the creatine for sure, but going to cycle off the preworkouts until PCT Unless I absolutely need it. I have 8 weeks worth of the N2Guard so I will take that 2 weeks into PCT to help with liver support.

If I were to add 1-AD, 4-AD, or Epi-AD to this stack - which would you recommend the most without having to change anything else?

Weeks 1-6: M-sten @ 20/20/20/30/30/30
Weeks 1-6: N2Guard @ label recommendation.
Weeks 1-6: (Stack) @ 1 a day for 3 weeks, 2 a day for following 3 weeks

Weeks 7-8: N2Guard @ label recommendations.
Weeks 7-10: Nolvadex @ 20 mg/daily.

Weeks 7-10: HCGenerate @ label recommendations.

Weeks 7-10: Unleashed @ label recommendations.
Weeks 8-11: E-Control @ 3 caps/daily (before bed).
 
Not everyone experiences a decreasein libidio with 4-6 week cycles. If you do, 4-andro can help.

As far as lethargy goes, I wrote an extensive reply to this question elsewhere but I don't remember where it was posted. Anyway, low T can cause low energy levels and other side effects associated with testosterone deficiency, but the distinct type of lethargy associated with the use of certain orals (and which is very frequently accompanied by appetite suppression and mild depression/general malaise) is NOT due to low T levels. Rather, it is a direct effect of the steroid itself. Not everyone experiences this side effects--it is a very individual thing.

Many people on these and other forums have been mis-led into thinking that the type of lethargy sometimes experienced with certain orals is due solely to declining testosterone levels...when in reality, it has nothing to do with it.

All steroids suppress T levels, so technically everyone should experience this same type of lethargy-appetite suppression-malaise every time they runa no-test cycle. However, it is easily possible to run a no-T cycle and still feel great. D-bol only cycles used to be very common and basically no one complained about lethargy. In fact, it generally makes people feel great. There are many other steroids one can run without experiencing the ass-tired, don't want to get up type of lethargy associated with certain orals.

You will also notice that only a small percentage of steroids tend to cause this side effect, which is always caused by orals and is very frequently accompaied by appetite suppression and/or general malaise. If this side effect was the result of low T levels , it would be occuring at the same rate and severity with all steroids, but it never does. It only happens with oral AAS and particularly with certain orals...usually the stronger orals. M1T was notorious for this, with well over 50% of its users not even being able to finish their cycles because it was so bad. SD also frequenly caused this, although not as severely. Anadrol would occasionally cause it at higher dosages, as would a few other strong orals. However, lots of oral never caued this side effect. You never hear of D-bol, Anavar, Winstrol, Epistane, or T-bol users experiencing this....and if it does, it is only when very large dosages are used, but even then it usually doesn't happen.

More evidence for this is found in the fact that tons of steroid users experiencre this side effect when using certain orals no matter how much testosterone they inject. For example, if someone experiences lethargy-appetite suppression from M1T, no amount of testosterone is going to "cure" the person of this side effect...because it was never due to Low-T levels is the first place.

In reality, this is common knowledge among those who use injectable steroids, with 1,000's of testosterone users experiencing experienced this side effect even when blasting loads of testosterone. Howver, you will still find many propogating the false belief that this side effect is caused by low-T levels..and because the people being targeted are usually those who only use legal steroids, they don't have the experience with inejctable testosterone to know any better, so they believe what they hear. Welcome to the wonderful world of "sales", in which some decietful people intentionally mis-lead customers, while the ignorant simply repeat what they hear, perpetuating false information.

Now, if the people providing this info differentiated between the specific type of lerthargy-malaise caused by certain orals...and the lowered energy levels which can potentially be caused by low-T, I wouldn't have any problem with it, but this is rarely the case. I am in no way trying to say that anyone who has ever proclaimed this was intentionally being deceptive. Some people just don't know any better, while some others just didn't think to clearly distinguish betwen these two very different types of effects. Generally speaking, the effects experienced from low T are not pleasant, but they aren't necesarily unpleasant either. The type of lethargy-malaise caused by certain orals is very distinct and can be severe enough to make the user feel like total shit, causing depression and a lack of motivation/energy so severe that the user doesn't even want to get out of bed, let alone train. This would be a severe case and not typical, but you get the point. It is completely different from what low-T can potentially cause.

The good news is that M-sten doesn't usually cause this side effect and when it does occur, it is usually rather mild and not a big deal.

As for low-T, it can definitely be problematic with 4-6 week cycles, but energy usually remains pretty good. Low libido is much more likely to be a problem. By using 4-andro when on-cycle, you won't be able to stop the oral-induced lethargy if you are prone to it, but you will be able to avoid all the side effects associated with low-T, including libidio issues. So, if this is important to you, you can always throw in some 4-andro.
 
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Okay and if I throw in the 4-Andro @ 1 a day for 3 weeks and 2 a day for the last 3 weeks that would be enough? I noticed 4-Andro can convert to estrogen though and I am not using an AI while ON.
 
Okay and if I throw in the 4-Andro @ 1 a day for 3 weeks and 2 a day for the last 3 weeks that would be enough? I noticed 4-Andro can convert to estrogen though and I am not using an AI while ON.

I am not sure on the conversion rate for 4-andro, but the more you take, the more testosterone you will end up with. Generally, you are going to need to run at least a few caps daily in order to experience good effects. 4-andro is not used for increasing T into the supraphyiological range. Rather, it is more of a testosterone replacement product, which you can use during cycles in order to keep T levels in a normal range.

Since 4-andro will keep T levels in the normal range, there is no need for an AI. You only need an AI when T levels start getting into the supraphysiological range.
 
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