Need advice on adjusting a stack mid-cycle

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  1. #1
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    Need advice on adjusting a stack mid-cycle

    I am at day 10 of a 30 day cycle of the following:

    Epi-Tren 3 caps/day
    4Andro 2 caps/day
    1Andro 2 caps/day

    What I was looking for in this stack was lean, dry gains, without too much increase in aggression. I was worried about the aggression because I'm one of those people who tends to have a short fuse and high aggression anyway. Instead of aggression I am experiencing an increasing sense of lethargy. It's got to the point where I take 600mg of caffeine anhydrous before my workout and still just meander through the gym like I'm half asleep and just don't give a damn.

    Also, I've noticed that my joints are starting to ache more.

    I'm wondering if the 30mg of Epistane is just pushing my estrogen level too low. We're all balanced a little different after all.

    Here's what I'm considering as an adjustment for the remaining 20 days of this 30 day cycle:

    Cut the Epi-Tren to 2 caps/day
    Double the 4Andro to 4 caps/day

    Am I on the right track? It seems to me that this should a) tip the balance back towards male aggression, and b) put enough aromatizable hormone (Testosterone from the 4Andro) to bring my estrogen back up enough that my joints aren't going dry.

    My concern is that I don't really understand the anti-estrogen function of the epistane and so I don't know how it balances out against aromatizable hormones. Does it act as an anti-aromatase or as an estrogen receptor antagonist?

    Also, in case you ask, I'm already taking a double dose of a glucosamine/chondroitin/MSM/hydraulanic acid supplement to protect my joints.

  2. #2
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    It's gonna be a garbage cycle at only 2 caps Epi-Tren... totally ineffective dose, if anything I'd up it to at LEAST 4 caps or drop it all together. Caffeine isn't going to cure lethargy. Try DHT such as proviron masteron or epi-andro. You could also try adding some DMAA in addition to your caffeine dose.
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  3. #3
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    One of the DHT derivatives, huh? Is that because they're more androgenic or something? The thing is, if I start ordering new products now, I'll be more than halfway through my 30 days by the time I receive them to try out. Do you think I should just make the best of it with what I've already started for the next 20 days then?

    I was really expecting at least a little increase in male aggression and motivation. Either way, the gains are good so far. I was hovering around 195-197 right before I started 10 days ago and now I'm fluctuating around 205-207 and seeing a noticeable improvement in muscle hardness. I was just caught off guard by the anti-motivation factor. I normally power through my workouts with a lot of intensity and focus and I'm having a real tough time doing that now. I haven't found a pre-workout supplement that I like since I started getting back into the gym this year either. It seems like all these companies now days insist on putting garbage like yohimbe in their products that just gives me heart palpitations, vascular headaches and usually nausea if I attack the gym with my usual intensity so they end up slowing me down instead. Useless.

    So, after I ride this out and PCT for a month, what IML products would you recommend I stack instead for a better experience on my next cycle. I'm starting to think I want something considerably more aggressive and with at least a little water retention. My short term goals are mass and asthetics, although longer term I have more interest in strength and endurance. I'm currently 207lbs, 5'11" and roughly 11-12% BF. I tend toward being skinny naturally, so weight control is not a huge concern for me. In fact, when I started getting back into shape in January I was 163 lbs. The Super DMZ looks like it might be more my style, but I don't have a whole lot of experience with this stuff, so I'm curious what you'd recommend.

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    OK so I'm going to take your advice about upping the EpiTren and adding some EpiAndro. I just put the order in. I was reading that both of these can be run for longer than 4 weeks because of their low toxicity and actually should be to get the most out of them. I increased the EpiTren starting last night. I'll update you in a few days and hopefully I'll have some positive things to say about it.

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    1.) There are 2 different types of lethargy which can be experienced when using steroids. The first is due to testosterone deficiency, but this is generally takes several weeks or longer to show up, is usually very mild (does not affect your training or normal life actvities), and is more likely to happen when certain steroids are used in the absence of testosterone. For example, someone running a nandrolone or boldenone only cycle is much more likely to experience this than someone running a Dianabol & Trenbolone cycle.

    The 2nd type of lethargy, which is limited strictly to methylated drugs and is completely different than the type of lethargy associated with testiosterone deficiency, has nothing to do with testosterone levels and is simply a side effect of the methyl (oral) itself. You could take all the testosterone you want and it won't do a damn thing to stop it. This only happens with oral steroid (methyls), but not all of them (usually only the very strong ones), and can vary in severeity. Symptoms can include some or all of the following: tiredness, appetite suppression, demotivation, and even deppression. It is NOTHING like the side effects one gets from low test levels, which is mild and often undectable to many users. This type of "lethargy (for lack of a better word) can be VERY noticable and may begin in as little as a few days to a few weeks, depending on the type of methyl used and the individual's response.

    Look, if this side effect was due to testosterone suppression, then it would happen every single time someone ran a no-test cycle, but it doesn't. In fact, it ONLY happens when running orals...and most often with certain orals. Why can someone run an 8 week d-bol & tren cycle (not recommended, but used for the sake of example) and feel great, without the slightest hint of the above mentioned symptoms, yet run M1T for only 5 days and exprience all of them to an extreme degree? Are T levels still high after 8 weks of tren & D-bol, but down to nothing after only 5 days of M1T? Obviously, the answer is no. th 1st cycle would be far more suppressive. The same thing tends to happen frequently with drugs like SD or 1-alpha, but never with other orals like Winstrol or D-bol. If low T was the cause, it wouldn't matter what drug was used--all of them would cause the same problem, but they don't.

    Regardless of the bullshit that has been pushed on you, it has nothing to do with low T levels. Most often, this claim is simply a ploy to get people to buy 4-andro. Now, I will admit that most of the people saying this don't realize they are giving incorrect information--thet are simply repeating what they have heard from others. If you doubt this, wait until you find a steroid which causes this side effect to a severe degree (M1T, for instance), then take all the testosterone you want...and you will lean very quikcly that it has nothing to do with testosterone. You might feel the effects of the testosterone, but you will still exerience all the sides from the methyls along with it. There are literally 1,000's and 1,000's of steroid users, all of whom use a ton of testosterone, yet experience extreme lethargy when using certain orals. They know it has nothing to do with T or estrogen levels, but the guys who limit themselves only to legal products usually don't know this because they have no expoerience with testosterone or aromatizing steroids. If they did, they would realize that the type of lethargy one experiences with certain orals is completely independent of T levels.

    Now, I don't want you to think I am saying 4 andro is worthless. It is not, as it will normalize T levels when using AAS. This can help prevent libido issues, sexual dysfunction, and may even make you feel a bit better (as mood usually isn't optimal with low T), but it won't get rid of oral induced lethargy. The truth is that no one really knows why some methyls cause this side effect. It is almost always the more potent and toxic orals which cause it, but we still don't understand the mechanism of action. Some have speculated that liver stress is the cause, although I am not so sure this is the reason anymore, as I have seen people with relatively normal liver readings experience this side pretty badly, including myself. In addition, just because one person experiences this side effect does not mean the next guy will. There is tremendous diversity in terms of personal response when it comes to orals.

    2.) As far as Epistane goes, it does have significant anti-estrogenic affects, but you should not experience any joint problems after just 10 days, unless perhaps you already had issues and it exacerbated the problem.

    3.) You mention not wanting to experience aggression. Well, the good news is that none of the AAS IML sells are likely to promote aggression, except for possibly a high dose of Epi-tren, due to its conversion to trenbolone. In some cases, when guys say how aggressive they are feeling, it is purely a placebo effect...just like the 1st time user running fake gear talking about how he feels like killing people...LOL. All placebo, my friend. I would not worry about aggression with anything IMl sells. Honestly, when you get right down to it, the only people who need to "worry" about aggression are those with emotional maturity issues. Any adult that cannot control the steroids he is using has no business using them at all. Normally, it is only teens and young men who have a hard time with this, although plenty don't. By the time someone is an adult man, steroids should not be causing this problem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhodie View Post
    OK so I'm going to take your advice about upping the EpiTren and adding some EpiAndro. I just put the order in. I was reading that both of these can be run for longer than 4 weeks because of their low toxicity and actually should be to get the most out of them. I increased the EpiTren starting last night. I'll update you in a few days and hopefully I'll have some positive things to say about it.
    Epi-andro is not toxic at all.

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    Wow, I didn't know any of that. It's great being able to get clear and concise information from somebody. I tried a few prohormone cycles when I was a lot younger (19-21 years old) but had no idea what I was doing back then and nobody to ask questions. That makes a lot of sense what you said about emotional maturity and rage impulses. All I feel this time around is what I would describe as a calm confidence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Arnold View Post
    2.) As far as Epistane goes, it does have significant anti-estrogenic affects, but you should not experience any joint problems after just 10 days, unless perhaps you already had issues and it exacerbated the problem.
    Yeah, you know, I was thinking this morning that it has more to do with my training right now. I've always found that I build muscle faster training more like a power lifter than using the kind of high-volume workouts that are always touted in the bodybuilding magazines. I started pushing even more weight a few days into my Epi-Tren cycle. I think I need to just spend the next couple weeks using lower weight and higher reps to give my joints and connective tissue a break. Do you think the Dorian Yates school of thought is wearing down my joints a bit?

    As far as the lethargy, if that's what we should call it, The first few days I was really feeling pretty good. I would describe it as a 'calm confidence' and I felt an almost immediate improvement in my workout stamina, to the point where I was rounding off my workout with an hour of intense cardio intervals. More lately though that 'calm confidence' was turning into more of a 'eh, who gives a damn' and complete lack of drive. I wonder if it's just general fatigue and I'm overreacting? I feel a bit better tonight, but today is a scheduled rest day and I also got about 9 hours of sleep last night. I've upped the Epi-Tren and 4Andro both to 2 caps twice/day each since last night as well. The 1Andro I'm still only taking 1 twice a day, and I had only decided to pile it onto my stack last minute because IML was promoting it on the checkout page when I bought all this stuff a couple weeks ago. Total impulse buy.

    I am going to extend this into a 6 week cycle instead of 30 days, after reading a response you posted about Epi-Tren and Epi Andro on your Q&A thread. The Epi-Andro that I ordered has already shipped and should be here in a day or two and I have an extra bottle of ACS on the way too.

    What's your opinion about the 1-Andro though? Should I keep taking it at the low dose until it runs out or should I just set it aside?

    Also, with a higher dose of Epi-Tren, 4Andro and Epi-Andro for a roughly 6 week cycle, will 30 days of Ultra Male, E-control and ACS still be an appropriate PCT? I'm also going to try the OstaRX during that 30 day period because I was really interested after reading about it.

    Anyway, I really want to thank you Mike for sharing your knowledge like this. It's a huge help when it comes to a subject that's surrounded by so much vagueness and misinformation.

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